tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4777210255040195387.post2682776390948261669..comments2024-03-17T09:15:25.957+00:00Comments on LOL GREECE: OH I'M SORRY - YOU HAD A THEORY ABOUT GREEK DEBT TOO? (NOW WITH MORE PWNAGE)Manoshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01568922717477813566noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4777210255040195387.post-34564802092918169692023-12-23T16:08:20.220+00:002023-12-23T16:08:20.220+00:00C66C2
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LMT7J<a href="https://bayanlarsitesi.com/van-escort/" rel="nofollow">van</a><br /><a href="https://bayanlarsitesi.com/kastamonu-escort/" rel="nofollow">kastamonu</a><br /><a href="https://bayanlarsitesi.com/elazig-escort/" rel="nofollow">elazığ</a><br /><a href="https://bayanlarsitesi.com/tokat-escort/" rel="nofollow">tokat</a><br /><a href="https://bayanlarsitesi.com/sakarya-escort/" rel="nofollow">sakarya</a><br />LMT7Jİlbey2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4777210255040195387.post-40476545955486171662015-07-01T23:24:07.495+01:002015-07-01T23:24:07.495+01:00Amen to that, so fucking right, though sociopaths ...Amen to that, so fucking right, though sociopaths win more in Greece! <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4777210255040195387.post-20519686544545867412011-10-18T16:09:24.401+01:002011-10-18T16:09:24.401+01:00Now that is the GDP per capita in Purchasing Power...Now that is the GDP per capita in Purchasing Power Standards:<br /><br /><br />http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/table.do?tab=table&plugin=1&language=en&pcode=tsieb010<br /><br />Germany (2005): 116% of the EU27, Greece (2005): 92% of the EU27 (a cross-check 116/92 ≃ 25268/20244)Epanechnikovhttp://epanechnikov.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4777210255040195387.post-14720997013016699682011-10-18T15:59:20.402+01:002011-10-18T15:59:20.402+01:00"...it shows that PPP-adjusted income in Gree..."...it shows that PPP-adjusted income in Greece was higher, pre-crisis, than that of Germany"<br /><br />Where did you see that? According to the table 14.900 euros (2004) represent 73.6% of the (per capita) Greek GDP while 14.100 euros represent 55.8% of the German GDP. Which implies that Greek GDP_2004 = 20244 euros while German_GDP_2004 = 25268. <br /><br /><br /><br />"the poorer a population the greater the percentage it tends to direct to consumption of necessary goods and services, assuming similar levels of social security provision (lest someone quote China to me). Similarly, the poorer a population, the greater the percentage of consumption directed towards food"<br /><br />Don't only focus on the percentages. The Greeks were not only first in consumption as % of the GDP but also in consumption per capita (PPS). At the same time they were contributing the least in taxes as % of GDP. Doesn't that smell massive scale tax evasion?Epanechnikovhttp://epanechnikov.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4777210255040195387.post-431258116676088812011-10-17T15:09:12.708+01:002011-10-17T15:09:12.708+01:00Nice summary. Well done! Now have a look at these:...Nice summary. Well done! Now have a look at these:<br /><br />Consumption (Greeks first in Eurozone!)<br /><br />http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/images/4/46/Consumption_expenditure_of_households_%28domestic_concept%29.png<br /><br /><br />Taxation (Greeks last in Eurozone!)<br /><br />http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5620/taxesa.jpgEpanechnikovhttp://epanechnikov.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4777210255040195387.post-25074054111650820782011-10-17T02:16:16.683+01:002011-10-17T02:16:16.683+01:00(Omitted: The electoral abstention calculation her...(Omitted: The electoral abstention calculation here: http://histologion-gr.blogspot.com/2006/10/blog-post_18.html )taloshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13680864841710474232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4777210255040195387.post-78965326267126374032011-10-17T01:53:40.474+01:002011-10-17T01:53:40.474+01:005. You omit comparing public expenditure in Greece...5. You omit comparing public expenditure in Greece with that of other EU countries. Historically Greece is (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QHf8199zvvo/TplIRMi5WtI/AAAAAAAAAgk/neJ7HxU9umA/s1600/dapanes.jpg) near the bottom of the list. I'm not sure what the expenditures' graphs you present are supposed to be showing though: From what I can see public spending was pretty much flat over the past 25 years, and public employee wages were near flat at the same time that total employment was increasing. Meaning that per capita portion of GDP per public employee must have been declining, no?<br /><br />6. Even if the wage bill is higher that the EU average as % of GDP, this is *entirely* due to the huge amounts being spend on army personnel and police officers. As (http://www.social-europe.eu/2011/09/greece-to-sack-150000-public-sector-workers-for-the-sake-of-our-children/) Andrew Watts points out:<br /><br />"The EU data also allow us to look at a breakdown of the public sector wage bill by broad function. They do not suggest that the problem is overmanned Greek social-security offices doling out benefits. Greece spends a full percentage point of GDP more than the Euro area average, and considerably more than any other country, on paying its soldiers, sailors and airmen. It is also a big spender, in relative terms, on public order and security. In contrast the wage bill in the area of social security is rather below the euro area average."<br /><br />7. If one takes into account EU trends(and S.European ones especially - (http://streetlightblog.blogspot.com/2011/09/what-really-caused-eurozone-crisis-part.html) it is rather hard to make the case that the crisis in Greece is principally locally produced.<br /><br />I'll stop here, it's much too large a comment anyway. Sorry for taking up so much space...taloshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13680864841710474232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4777210255040195387.post-49590607814044731612011-10-17T01:49:39.724+01:002011-10-17T01:49:39.724+01:00A few points:
1. Greece didn't exist in a vac...A few points:<br /><br />1. Greece didn't exist in a vacuum. According to the IMF data you post, a similar boom in debt/GDP ratios occurred between 1980 and 1995 in all sorts of EU countries (although Greece was near the top admittedly) implying a European if not global trend. It is far from obvious however where that money went. I remind you that after 1984, PASOK implemented a *hard* austerity policy that saw real wages plummet back to where they were in 1980. And then the real blowup in the Debt/GDP ratio occurs under the Mitsotakis government, hardly a shining beacon of worker-friendly policies, eh? Everyone seems to be forgetting the huge private sector bailout of the "problem enterprises" (a large part of Greece's industrial base at the time) which went under and were rescued by the state, in a flurry of leftist rhetoric no less (that was one of the wonders of Andreas Papandreou). It is hard to evaluate but I would assume (I have no numbers on this) that it was a factor in the 80s debt explosion...<br /><br />2. I'm not sure what your point is regarding voting abstention patterns, but given the notoriously unreliable Greek voter rolls there's not much that can be proven by them. In fact even the 2004 elections had a real abstention rate of not over 12% (<a rel="nofollow">simple calculation here</a> - in Greek I'm afraid). So electoral participation in Greece had declined from stellar to pretty impressive by 2004. As I said: not much one can derive from that, given the concurrent similar trends in most western democracies<br /><br />3. The assessment of democracy in Greece had a lot to do with the first successful passing of government to a, rhetorically at least, left leaning government, without tanks rolling or a coup staged. It was a seminal event in modern Greek history and the level of freedom of speech after Papandreou's election one has to admit was unprecedented. Thus there was proof positive of a really functioning democracy. Economics had very little to do with it.<br /><br />4. The Olympics and the whole Simitis eurobubble thing was sold hard by pundits and Serious People in pretty much all of the (corrupt) media as proof positive that Greece is now a Strong Country. That the electorate didn't see past this BS and notice that they were being screwed, is sad but it is the spin doctors of "Iskhiri Ellada" that should be skewered. I can remember no one apart from sections of the left that was pointing out at the time that growth through borrowing isn't really a sustainable idea (as I can remember few apart from the left noticing the Athens Stockmarket scam until after it crashed). Now, media disinformation or at least inattention *is* a problem in a democracy. Not one easily attributable to the masses though...taloshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13680864841710474232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4777210255040195387.post-63706109125818381432011-10-16T19:23:09.114+01:002011-10-16T19:23:09.114+01:00Anonymous of 17:41,
Thank you for pointing us to ...Anonymous of 17:41,<br /><br />Thank you for pointing us to the nationalistic roumor mill... err I mean to the esteemed website named olympia.gr regarding the infamous Russian loan proposal.<br /><br />May I point you to a slightly more researched article on the same issue in this blog that hosts our comments?<br /><br />http://lolgreece.blogspot.com/2011/08/self-aggrandising-bullcrap.htmlAuslaenderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13426872133808875069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4777210255040195387.post-88758881911255435432011-07-14T15:42:40.264+01:002011-07-14T15:42:40.264+01:00http://citypress-gr.blogspot.com/http://citypress-gr.blogspot.com/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4777210255040195387.post-57356514629138754482011-07-14T15:41:35.817+01:002011-07-14T15:41:35.817+01:00@Kalamaria
Ας far as the Putin "urban myth&qu...@Kalamaria<br />Ας far as the Putin "urban myth" about lenting us money, have you read this-><br />http://olympia.gr/2011/07/14/%C2%AB%CE%B7-%CF%81%CF%89%CF%83%CE%AF%CE%B1-%CE%AD%CE%B4%CE%B9%CE%BD%CE%B5-%CE%B4%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%B5%CE%B9%CE%BF-%CE%B7-%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%AC%CE%B4%CE%B1-%CE%B1%CE%B4%CE%B9%CE%B1%CF%86%CF%8C%CF%81/<br /><br />But I guess your comments are credible and the one from the Russian Douma are not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4777210255040195387.post-30706485425589008702011-07-04T01:37:18.174+01:002011-07-04T01:37:18.174+01:00χαίρεται... όχι πως είναι το πιο σημαντικό στοιχεί...χαίρεται... όχι πως είναι το πιο σημαντικό στοιχείο... αλλά όσο αφορά την έρευνα για το ποσοστό ατόμων που ψηφίσαν στις εκλογές καλύτερα θα είναι να χρησιμοποιήσεις τη στήλη "VAP turnout" καθώς μάλλον ανταποκρίνεται πιο σωστά σε αυτό το οποίο αναφερόσουν ως ποσοστό ανθρώπων που συμμετείχαν στις εκλογές. Η διαφορά είναι ότι στο στον ένα λόγο διαιρείς με το σύνολο των ανθρώπων που είναι γραμμένοι στους εκλογικούς καταλόγους και στη δεύτερη περίπτωση με τον αριθμό των ανθρώπων που έχουν δικαίωμα ψήφου. Το γιατί δεν ταυτίζονται δεν το ξέρω και δε θα προσπαθήσω να το μαντέψω καθώς και το ότι ο εκλογικός κατάλογος έχει περισσότερα άτομα από το σύνολο των ατόμων που 'χουν δικαίωμα ψήφου τα περισσότερα έτη.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4777210255040195387.post-44942850665198267322011-07-03T19:30:39.657+01:002011-07-03T19:30:39.657+01:00Another fine article. I would also blame central b...Another fine article. I would also blame central banks tho for encouraging the creation of these debts. Nevertheless, yes Greece is an example of how dangerous the Keynesian experiment is.Lazarosnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4777210255040195387.post-21591460451372572492011-07-01T22:27:06.745+01:002011-07-01T22:27:06.745+01:00Economics doesn't matter. Only psychology doe...Economics doesn't matter. Only psychology does. There are lots of children and only a few mature (non-childlike) sociopaths. It's the same in all societies. The sociopaths win.<br /><br />> But what Europe shares with the Greek political class is a crisis of top-level vision, execution and consent. The elite in Athens, one eminent local commentator admits freely, "has always floated above the people. But nobody minded. They got rich, we got rich. We never cared that they were unaccountable. But now they're still floating up there, adrift, separate from the people: but everybody's getting poorer."<br /><br /><br />http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jun/30/today-greece-gucci-elite-eurozoneNOTaREALmericannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4777210255040195387.post-7538860009480018892011-06-30T17:13:43.668+01:002011-06-30T17:13:43.668+01:00C'mon Francis - the guilty claim they are inno...C'mon Francis - the guilty claim they are innocent. The innocent also claim -they have to-they are innocent. We cannot derive their guilt from their claims. Can you imagine a criminal system working this way ?<br /><br />"Big picture" writes today: "Yes, Greece is a mess.Which begs the question: WHO THE FUCK WOULD LEND A DIME TO THESE PEOPLE?" Well, I will tell you who - the people who knew better, the people with the risk management skills, polished by expensive degrees in accounting and financial maths. The big political parties have quite a few economists with ...university jobs in their teams. Very few spoke up, and nobody persisted.These are the people, to quote a line from a Hollywood movie I forget, who "are paid to worry". <br /><br />I do not altogether agree with The Big Picture. Populism, there is some of it everywhere. Greece has not, however, developed the antibodies to counter it. This is a huge problem. But the other extreme [blame-the-Greeks] seems to me "reverse populism", or populism for the lender countries, a bit racist, and a bait-and-switch tactic to exonerate the lenders. Should we exonerate them?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4777210255040195387.post-33393299183621316072011-06-30T16:44:16.112+01:002011-06-30T16:44:16.112+01:00@yiorgos
Even 40% is awful IMO.@yiorgos<br /><br />Even 40% is awful IMO.Francishttp://bullionexplorer.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4777210255040195387.post-78142389762965248052011-06-30T16:34:10.500+01:002011-06-30T16:34:10.500+01:00@Francis
It's 49.5% with the EU27 average bein...@Francis<br />It's 49.5% with the EU27 average being 50.3% (2010 figs) Can we start getting some numbers right? Pls??yiorgosnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4777210255040195387.post-36341900016645731482011-06-30T15:45:53.957+01:002011-06-30T15:45:53.957+01:00One point I read on another blog, is that the reas...One point I read on another blog, is that the reason why so many Greeks feel like victims, is that even those who are on the state's payroll don't profit that much from it as they are so many of them so they paychecks are measly -- 40% of GDP is government.<br /><br />That's one point I'd be ready to concede.Francishttp://bullionexplorer.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4777210255040195387.post-33211547128741858052011-06-30T15:36:48.129+01:002011-06-30T15:36:48.129+01:00@Anonymous
It is quite common, here as well, for ...@Anonymous<br /><br />It is quite common, here as well, for people who profit from government pork, that they are not really profiting from it, and more so when things go wrong as to distantiate themselves from the mess.<br /><br />(ie: "What ?? *I* did not buy this house I cannot afford, but before the crap hit the fan, I was really happy to claim it was *my* house")<br /><br />I certainly think alot of Greeks did not profit, pre-collapse. Those who had a negative economic relationship with the government certainly did not. Those who chipped in more than they took out, if they even took anything at all, out.<br /><br />Are these in the streets now ?<br /><br />PS: BTW, 40% of the GDP is public spending. Gimme a break.Francishttp://bullionexplorer.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4777210255040195387.post-62238588780434202011-06-30T15:04:05.794+01:002011-06-30T15:04:05.794+01:00I do not think that the issue was ever phrased in ...I do not think that the issue was ever phrased in those terms, until too late [2008 ?]. Not everyone is an economist, and yes, people want generally to have secure jobs, something which in the eighties was within their reach for the first time in Greek history [I never voted PASOK or ND, and I consider myself an indignado]. Also, you seem to suggest that the causation is majority-political change -debt. What if the causation is corruption or non-democracy - debt - majority ? The greedy oi polloi forced the debt on the country, or the elite bought a fragile consensus by buying off a critical mass of voters [never a majority, lest we forget]? Finally, why you reiterate, like so many others [without any data], that the "Greeks" have benefited ? Frankly, very littele is known about Greek poverty outside, and inside this country...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com